Usapan:Tala ng mga tagapagmaneho sa NASCAR

This should do it.

1. Driver avoids limiting pronunciation to /dráy·ber/, which is increasingly not the way to pronounce the word. (Tagalog—particularly in the Metro—is a rapidly-evolving language which hasn’t yet settled into a standard form.)
2. Tala is the more formal alternative for lista(han).
3. Here, I avoided using the -s plural suffix frequently used by Filipinists (and increasingly by ordinary people) in place of mga. —Život 08:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Alin ang mas pormal ang DRIVER o DRAYBER o TSUPER ? T O M A S . D E . A Q U I N O ^{mag-iwan ng mensahe} 22:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

It’s a bit more complicated than that. On the surface, these two might seem identical. However, subtle differences in meaning have over the years arisen between the two. A driver or tsuper might drive your kid to school, but never would a tsuper race in NASCAR or Formula 1. —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Pasingit lamang po sa inyong mga argumento, mga kaibigan. Maaari sigurong gawing na lamang nating tagapagmaneho ang salin ng driver. Maaari din na tagapagtakbo ng sasakyan, kung istrikto tayo sa pagsalin sa Tagalog. --Jojit fb 04:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

An extension of Wikipedia talk:Filipino o Tagalog?

Sa aking paniniwala

1 wala nang dapat pang pagusapan kung ano ang dapat DRIVER ba o DRAYBER. Gayumpaman, malamang merong dapat na pagusapan sa pagitan ng DRAYBER o TSUPER.

2 Hindi ko alam kung sino ang dapat magsabi ng kung ano ang PORMAL at di PORMAL sa WIKIPEDIA na ito, lalo pa ngayong naglalabasan na ang mga REDIRECTS na medyo "kayo na ang pumili ng tamang salitang nararapat.

• Tyuzdey; 06:15 . . Život (Talk) (Filipinism)
• Tyuzdi; 06:15 . . Život (Talk) (Filipinism)
• Terzdi; 06:14 . . Život (Talk) (Filipinism)
• Terzdey; 06:14 . . Život (Talk) (Filipinism)
• Sandi; 06:12 . . Život (Talk) (Filipinism)
• Sandey; 06:11 . . Život (Talk) (Filipinism)

etc ...

They exist. To acknowledge so is different from championing their use. That is why they remain as redirects. —Život 04:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

3 Ano ba kasi ibig sabihin ng Filipinism na ito, ang bakit hindi natin i "Filipinize" or isa Filipino rin ang DRAYBER? At gawan din natin ng redirect na singdami ng lahat ng alternative na spelling nito? Nanghiram na nga ang "Filipino" sa ibat ibang language, nanghiram na rin ang Tagalog, at sa Filipino pa ba ito hihiramin?

I guess you should be made aware of the persistent problem people scouring the net for information in Tagalog face when they do not know exactly how to spell a word (think school research). Tagalog has no spelling standard, particularly for loanwords. Alternative spellings proliferate in Filipino-language publications and even in university. Anyone might type in any of these variants in search engines—without being aware of what the “correct” spelling is—and I firmly believe that creating redirects from these variants is one good use of the redirect feature of Wikipedia. —Život 04:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I guess what i am trying to say is, meron nang "Martes" na tagalog na hiniram sa "kastila", bakit kailangan pang hiramin ang "tuesday" sa english? at ang "Tyuzdey" ng Filipino o gayspelling na ito ng Tuesday? Maging ang accent ng english sa salitang "Tyuzdi" ay isasama pa natin? We might as well FILIPINISE or FILIPINIZE (hindi ko alam kung tagalog ito or filipino or filipinized tagalog) o isafilipino ang lahat ng salita sa wikipedia, sa pag-asang iyon din ang bigkas o baybay ng "nakararami". Halimbawa lagyan din natin ng redirect ang salitang "eg" para sa "egg" o "itlog" at "holi pak" or "holi phak" para sa "holy fuck"

Nanggaling ka na sa ’Pinas, ’di ba? I’ve lived in the Philippines my entire life, and while I might use Martes in writing Wikipedia articles (which I do), Tuesday is undoubtedly more used than Martes in certain sections of society, where use of the latter is deemed artificial—pilit, as they say.

Interesting, kung magkakaroon po kayo ng pagkakataon hindi ako nagmamadali, ngunit gusto kong makakita sana ng sanggunian ng inyong sinasabing "Tuesday is undoubtedly more used than Martes", nais kong malaman kung kailan naging "more used ito" T O M A S . D E . A Q U I N O ^{mag-iwan ng mensahe} 05:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

At kung anong klaseng "society" ang mga mas madalas na gumamit ng salitang Tuesday kaysa sa Martes, that is bukod sa inyo pong salita. T O M A S . D E . A Q U I N O ^{mag-iwan ng mensahe} 05:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Tell me. Saang dialect ka nang nakarinig ng paggamit ng hattinig, na ang gamit bilang pamagat ay dati mo pang…iminumungkahi…at mismong inilagay sa panimula ng Telepono? Or remember that word for algebra, panandaan? Why not show me some proof of their everyday and widespread use by, with all due respect, people apart from you? But that’s beside the point. As for me, I’m merely creating redirects—redirects. Does this mean I am promoting the use of these words from which I am creating redirects?

Hindi ko claim or kailan man sinabi na mas ginagamit ang salitang HATTINIG kaysa sa TELEPONO, ang sa akin lamang ay dahil ang salitang telepono ay hango sa salitang Greek: tele = far away and phone = voice, gayung mayroon nang salitang ginagamit HAT(t)INIG

The fact that one insists on keeping the word in the introduction would normally suggest otherwise. —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Kung susundin ang inyong sinasabi ninyong concensus "... that native terms generally are more formal than Spanish-derived ones. That’s why gobyerno is referred to in formal language as pamahalaan, eskwela as paaralan, etc. —Život 04:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)", marahil nga ay mas nararapat na gamitin ang HATTINIG kaysa sa TELEPONO. And same applies to PANANDAAN kaysa sa ALHEBRA.

Ngayon magbibigay daan ang consensus na ito sa tanong na kung ano nga ba ang "native terms"

Kung ang pagpapangalan naman sa artikulo ay nararapat ibigay sa mga salitang MAS MADALAS gamitin, marahil mas nararapat na gamitin na natin ang mga salitang TUESDAY kasya sa MARTES kung ito nga sa inyong palagay ang mas madalas na gamitin, gaya nang unang nasabi.

Certain segments of society. Need I repeat myself? That is why they remain as redirects. —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Nangangailangan ng kombensyon ang Wiki na ito, upang magkaroon ng "standard" way(s) 69.120.20.20 22:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The difference between pamahalaan and panandaan is that the first one caught on, while the latter died out even before it gained currency. Everybody knows that panandaan is dead!

At least everybody here. —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely not! In fact, first time I saw forms such as those being used in writing—by academics and linguists!—I was appalled. You only need skim through publications by the Philippines’s leading universities and the KWF to know what I am talking about.

Magbibigay lang ito ng katanungan sa akin kung ano ang ginagamit ng linguists na tinutukoy mo, kung Filipino ba o Tagalog! 69.120.20.20 22:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we side on one extreme of the “Tagalog-Filipino” debate? This in an encyclopedia—it is supposed to be understood by as many people as possible and thus we should take the middle way. Creating a dichotomy between the two would only result in incomprehensibility as none of these two variants linguists on both extreme ends of the debate are proposing are actually used. See my next comment. —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

While passing by UP Diliman grounds, I saw written on a sign Chanselor. I won’t even try to explain anymore what I saw wrong in that. I still cringe whenever I encounter the use of such forms, but even so, I will not be one of those people who will deny the existence of these forms, let alone prevent other people from using them in everyday discourse. A president may be against this or that, but he ought not to declare them illegal just because it ticks him off or makes him sick. Frankly, I don’t understand why you are so opposed to the creation of these redirects when redirects are being created here and there in, for example, the English Wikipedia. People type in Leitmeritz, and they get redirected to Litoměřice.

Gaya ng nasabi sa itaas kailangan ng kombensyon para rito sa mga redirect at pagpapangalan ng mga artikulo. Nais ko ring itanong kung ang salitang "chanselor" ay "filipino" o "tagalog?"

Don’t be naïve. The two are the same language. Anyway, if we insist on dwelling on this particular topic, Wikipedia talk:Filipino o Tagalog? would I believe be the proper forum. Naghahalo-halo na ang mga paksa dito. —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

We can not avoid the use by other people of such forms as as Leitmeritz, Sinto, etc., just as we can not prevent students from being asked by their professors in Filipino to do research on physics/fiziks/pisix/etc. and not to forget to include a bibliyografi. —Život 12:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC) With regard to the spellings, I believe I’ve already responded to that. And no, I don’t believe we should attempt to transliterate ‘holy fuck’ and such as those are whole phrases and not words. —Život 04:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

As for itlog, I don’t believe there would be a need to redirect from egg or eg. There simply is no other word for egg in Tagalog apart from itlog. It (along with its cognates) is a word core to all Philippine languages. Tuesday and Martes are Indo-European words that came in much, much later. Like thousands of years later. —Život 05:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Tala(an) at lista(han)

4 At kung mas pormal ang salitang TALA kaysa LISTAHAN, what makes it formal? At bakit sa paghahanap sa salitang "listahan" sa searchbox eh puro na lang LISTAHAN ng mga ... ang nakikita ko at hidi "Tala ng mga ... " T O M A S . D E . A Q U I N O ^{mag-iwan ng mensahe} 17:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a general consensus that native terms generally are more formal than Spanish-derived ones. That’s why gobyerno is referred to in formal language as pamahalaan, eskwela as paaralan, etc. —Život 04:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Kung tala ang ating gagawing salin, di ba mas nararapat ang salitang "Talaan" (gaya ng sa "Talaan ng mga nilalaman" ) T O M A S . D E . A Q U I N O ^{mag-iwan ng mensahe} 05:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Hindi ko yan masasagot nang mag-isa; bagaman tala ang gamit sa amin sa “Southern Tagalog”, napapansin ko na madalas din ang paggamit ng talaan, lalo na sa Maynila. Gayumpaman, I did some mini-research, and this is what I came up with:

list: n. talâ, listahan (Tagalog Dictionary, Rubino, 2002)

ta·lâ png 1: maikling rekord o sulat ng mga katibayan, paksa, mga naisip, at iba pa bilang tulong sa memorya, gamit sa pagsusulat, pagsasalita, at iba pa (UPDF, 2001).

ta·lá·an png [talâ + an]: papel o anumang katulad na sinasagutan ng mga pangalan o anumang kailangang matandaan Cf taláarawán (ibid.). —Život 12:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Sa aking pagkaka unawa ang tala ay maaring tumukoy sa

• talaan isang listahan ng bagay bagay, at sa gamit ng salitang listahan na ito ay may pahiwatig na ito ay maari pang listahan o dagdagan o bawasan

Saan dapat itala o isulat ang bagay bagay? Sa tala or sa talaan? Saan dapat ilista ang mga bagay bagay? Sa lista o sa listahan?

I understand. However:

• Ano ang tawag sa yon na pinagtatalaan ng mga bagay? Tama nga, talaan. Pero,

• Ano naman ang tawag sa isang enumeration ng mga bagay? Tala.

My take: Talaan (thing on which one lists things) and tala (the list itself). —Život 04:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)